Hernan Lopez of Wondery answers your podcasting questions - and our next guest, Diana Williams, will help you get creative

"There’s definitely room for up and coming creators." That was the key takeaway shared by Hernan Lopez, CEO and founder of Wondery and the guest for this week's episode of You've Got This. When we announced that Hernan would be answering your questions, the podcasting community here on LinkedIn made their voices heard with over 700 comments, questions, and thoughts on the future of podcasting. On my call with Hernan yesterday, we went through as many of your questions as possible, tackling everything from the future of podcast advertising (hint: it's bright) to how to build your show's audience on a low-to-no-budget basis to the next areas of podcasting opportunity.

Read on for Hernan's answers - and don't forget to leave your questions for next week's guest, Executive Vice President of Creative at MWM Universe Diana Williams, in the comments.

From Erica Glessing, CEO of the Happy Communications Group: "With so many new shows hitting the podcast airwaves in 2020, how can a new show vie for massive attention? What differentiates the rock stars from the mundane?"

Hernan:  "That’s a great question! It comes to two factors: content and marketing. And both of them are equally important. On the content side, you need to have a show that has a clear point of view, a very clear hook, especially in the first 3 minutes of the show, that has strong characters, or a strong story, or both. And then on the marketing side, you need to put that show in front of the right listeners, whether it is through editorial promotion on the main platforms like Apple and Spotify, or cross-promotion with other podcasts, ideally with both working in-tandem. It is undeniable that the best marketing campaign cannot help a show that is not great. But having a great show is not enough. Every good show needs a promotional campaign. For rockstars it depends on the category in which they are.

"We look at personality-driven podcasts differently from story-driven podcasts."

If it’s personality, they need a rockstar personality behind them – and that doesn’t mean famous, it means someone who knows how to connect with listeners. But also someone who knows how to hook an audience and keep an audience’s interest throughout an episode. For story-based podcasts, we look at characters, at stakes, at relatability, and a clear beginning, middle and end."

From Ronit Feinglass Plank, Freelance Writer and Host/Producer: "Dirty John and the True Crime genre crossed over and captured Hollywood's interest, what other podcast genre do you see as having the potential of crossing over?....I don't like a whole lot of introductory chit chat on my podcast because as I listen I prefer to get to the content. What's your take on that? And regarding Listener Experience what do you think ultimately most often takes podcasts out of the game?"

Hernan: "I think anything in the storytelling space, not necessarily true crime, has that opportunity. For instance, we have ten of our shows being adapted to television. And not all of them are true crime. I think there’s a lot of opportunity on any podcast that is story-based – again, it comes back to character, as well as story. And I see lots of potential on audio dramas. We just recently launched Blood Ties, an audio-drama which rose to #1 on Apple podcasts and has stayed there for two weeks. That’s something we haven’t done in a while, but we think that is something that will be a great source of inspiration for television.

As far as introductory chit-chat, it all depends. I think it’s pretty well-established that a little bit is warranted, but you can’t do too long of an introduction. Most listeners, most hosts, find the right balance for their audience, because podcast listeners are nothing if not opinionated! If they feel the show has too long of an introduction, they will stop listening, or say in their reviews."

From Stephen A. Hart, Marketer, Brand Strategist and Podcaster: "As an independent podcaster, I've published over 200 episodes every Monday morning at 5am ET for the past 4 years and am today reaching a very engaging community of Black entrepreneurs, leaders and professionals. While I've been featured on the home page of Apple a couple times and here and there in a couple other media, I am challenged by what I need to do next to move my niche pod from 300,000+ lifetime downloads to 3,000,000 and more. I know that I'm putting out content that's creating significant impact, as my community have been consistently telling me of it's worth and value to them. What are your thoughts on how an established niche indie pod can begin to gain main stream attention and dial up awareness and reach?" 

Hernan: "Doing guest swaps is one of the most tried and true ways of promoting your show that doesn’t require an investment in cash. Guest-swap means you have a conversation with another show of a similar size in a similar genre, and agree to be a guest on their show while they agree to be a guest on yours. It’s a technique used by independents as well as big podcasters including us."

From Thea Wood, Host for Backstage Chats with Women In Music: "My nonprofit is new and on a shoe-string budget. The podcast is an extension of our mission as a tool to feature women in music and fundraise for our scholarship grant program. What are the best "bang for your buck" marketing strategies to grow your audience?"

Hernan: "Definitely guest-swapping, which requires no cash investment. And when it comes to marketing investment, I don’t think there’s any more effective and cost-efficient way than promoting a show via ads on other podcasts. They’re going to be reaching an audience that’s more predisposed to listen to your show, and also ‘in the mood’ to listen to other podcasts."

From Patrick McAndrew, Actor, Speaker, Podcast Host: "What is the profit potential with podcasting? With it being such a booming industry, what are ways in which we can scale our skills?"

Hernan: "The industry is primarily supported by advertising, and so the drivers of advertising are higher audiences, higher sellout, and higher rates. But in addition to that, there are a number of people who supplement their support through Patreon subscriptions or similar programs, through merchandise, and through live appearances. Those are the main ways in which ongoing podcasts can support their shows. You’ll find that the longer you go, the bigger your library is, so the higher the chances you’ll be able to sell back catalogue inventory on your show – provided that you’re using a host that allows for dynamic ad insertion."

From Dalton Main, Journalist: "What kind of growth does Wondery see in audio drama and fiction podcasts? It seems like shows like Homecoming and The White Vault have only begun to scratch the surface of possibilities in this space. BBC is a decade removed from its hit radio show Cabin Pressure, so what kind of movement will we see in sitcom-style series and what kind of talent will be brought to that table?"

Hernan: "Great question! I don’t know if a lot of readers know the history of Wondery, but we started doing audio fiction in 2016, and we stopped doing it because the financial equation wasn’t positive as it was for true stories or interview-style shows. But we never stopped having a soft spot for audio drama creatively, and just in the last 2 weeks, we launched Blood Ties, and there’s a great piece on the WSJ on it this past Monday. This show has done well above our expectations. It’s on track to possibly reach 1 million downloads per episode, and we will definitely be doing more audio drama given the success we’ve had with Blood Ties, and I think we’ll see other companies doing it too. It’s extremely hard to do right, even more so than true stories!"

From Sam Balter, Podcasting at HubSpot: "What genres or topics have been largely unexplored by podcasting? And why do you think that is? For example, some areas that seem underexplored are hyper-local news or content geared towards children."

Hernan: "I think on hyper-local news, it’s really a question of scale. You need a minimal number of listeners to justify the cost of a show, because the production cost of a show is the same whether the audience potential is global (like Dirty John) or local. For children, that’s a different problem – I think the problem has been that advertising in podcasts has traditionally been the territory of direct-to-consumer brands, and by definition, DTC brands cannot sell to children. So they’re selling to a very small subset of parents who are listening with their children, and that’s not a huge universe. As far as unexplored topics, travel podcasts - so many companies and advertisers have come to us, asking if we have any travel shows in our network. And travel’s been seen as a traditionally visual vertical, and thus not as up for podcasts, although I don’t know if anyone has really tried. Food is another category where there’s more demand for advertisers than supply. And parenting also comes to mind."

From Nikki Bruno, Founder, Coach, Speaker, and Author: "How much value does narrow niche-ing add to a podcast, if any?"

Hernan: "Great question. It is often not the best strategy when it comes to maximizing ROI to go after too narrow a niche, because you’ll find very often, the more specific your podcast is, especially when it’s in a service vertical (ie "we will help you solve specific problem X"), you’ll find people come to it for what they need, and then not come back as often as you need to. So I would always recommend trying to make the tent as big as possible."

From Jeremy Ryan Slate, Podcast host, PR expert and speaker: "Podcast advertising has created an extremely unique opportunity for advertisers, where listeners see it as a recommendation rather than an ad.  How do you see advertising changing in the next 5 years and have you seen a change in its effectiveness?"

Hernan: "I have not seen the effectiveness change. In fact, long-term advertisers on podcasts continue to increase their campaigns and the size of their campaigns, which can only be seen as a sign they’re working. As far as how ads will change in the future, I think you’re going to see more of a mix in the kinds of formats. Podcasts have been traditionally the exclusive territory of host-read ads for many years, and you’re going to see more and more producer-read ads mixed with host-read ads. And then you’re going to see more brand advertisers coming into the space than before, as opposed to just direct-to-consumer brands. "

From Kyle Bondo: "Do you see big content consumption companies like Spotify, Apple, or even Audible, along with big content production companies like your own Wondery (and competitors like Art19 or Gimlet) look at independent podcasters for content just like Hollywood is doing to find and BUY new talent? In other words do you see Wondery bringing in new amateur podcast creators, giving contracts to previously unknown independent studios, as a way to grow your portfolio of podcast offerings? Or will you continue to grow your creative talent inhouse? And finally, how lucrative do you see the audiodrama podcast community when it comes to ROI?"

Hernan: "Our business is roughly divided between shows that are homegrown, Wondery originals, and shows that are created by independent podcasters.

"We definitely look for submissions from independent podcasters and independent creators!"

A lot of people don’t realize that. You can see the difference in whether a show on our network is a Wondery original by whether they have the Wondery logo (original) or not. For instance, Real Crime Profile is one of our longest-running podcasts and it’s a partnership show – it’s wholly created by Laura Richards, Jim Clemente, and Lisa Zambetti, and we’ve been working with them for four years now on monetization and audience growth. And audio-dramas are more expensive and have a lower revenue potential than true stories at scale, so they have a lower ROI for sure. But they’re creatively very rewarding."

From Ezanya Obeten-Nance, Histotechnologist and Podcast host: "I am a histotechnologist, a parent and I have a podcast. I know podcasting has helped bring me confidence, given me an opportunity to appreciate the little things, and listen to great people. What do you think about the Anchor Podcast Platform? I use it and like it, however a few people have "knocked" it because it is a free podcast platform! Do you think it's being purchased by Spotify gives it more of a better chance among other players in podcasting?"

Hernan: "I don’t know enough about the Anchor Platform, but I have a huge amount of respect for the team at Spotify. Listeners will judge your show purely on the quality of its content, and advertisers, in addition to quality of the content and the ad spots, on the engagement of your listeners and the transparency of your metrics."

From Joy Keys, Podcast host: "What is the best way to collaborate with podcasters in different countries? How long should a podcast be? Do you think millennials will only be able to listen to 15 minutes or less?"

Hernan: "We have started ourselves creating shows in multiple languages. We’ve done Dr. Death in seven languages, Business Wars in four languages. And what we’ve done is reach out to companies like Wondery in Germany, France, Brazil, that can help us cross-promote. It varies by what your podcast is about, but start with personal relationships. I love the answer that James Cridland from Podnews gives, which is “as long as it needs to be, and not a minute longer.” Which means no fixed format, but nobody will ever forgive you for a podcast that is too long. If a podcast is too short, they’ll come back to listen to more. But if it’s too long, they won’t listen to the end, and then it’s much less likely they’ll come back! And Millennials listen to all kinds of lengths, as do older and younger listeners. Although it’s true, anecdotally, that we’re seeing a trend towards shorter episodes."

From Glenn Rubenstein, Podcast advertising sales and marketing professional: "What is Wondery’s outlook on the future of podcast advertising?"

Hernan: "We have made a prediction that the US podcast advertising market will reach $1 billion in 2020, which is a year earlier than anticipated by the IAB revenue survey!"

From Carla Taylor MA, CPC and podcast host: "I’d love to know what is trending and what some of the hottest niches are currently."

Hernan: "At Wondery, we’re more and more moving in the direction of having larger audiences, as opposed to having niche audiences. But for sure, I can tell you parenting is one that – I don’t know if you can call it niche, but it’s an audience and a vertical that’s in high demand."

From Ricardo Osuna, Partnerships @ FFW: "One question I'd love to hear Hernan's perspective on is if he thinks that we will start seeing podcasts with shorter and shorter episode lengths? So many podcasts out there today rely on long-form interviewing and storytelling, with only a small proportion of creators and journalists effectively moving into shorter, more concise format - a lot of times with more frequent releases. Of course this makes sense for daily news podcasts from major outlets (ie - The Daily, Up First). But how about shorter format narrative storytelling across other types of shows?"

Hernan: "In fact, we have done it – if you listen to The Mysterious Mr. Epstein, that was the first time that we had a mini-series that had shorter episodes, and it was particularly successful – I don’t know whether the length had anything to do with it, but we tried that and liked the outcome."

From April Melton, Staffing Account Executive and Podcast host: "What does [Hernan] foresee is the future? I have been to a few live recordings and podcasts tours - which are AWESOME!"

Hernan: "I think you’re going to see podcasts going from a niche medium to a scale medium. And I would encourage you to go to Edison Research, and look at studies published in 2019 about podcasts. They did a lot of work looking at the difference between the legacy podcast consumer versus the new podcast consumer. I’d definitely go and read those studies."

From Nils Smith: "When it comes to driving action from a podcast, what’s the best way to get a response? SMS, website URL, email address, Phone number?"

Hernan: "Definitely URL. It’s what people are used to going to. Phone numbers are extremely hard, people are very protective of them because they don’t know where they will end up. URL is the way to go. Email is the second-best option."

From Lori Taylor, Founder & CEO of The Produce Moms: "Will video become a more important component to podcasting?"

Hernan: "For the first question, I don’t think so. If by video podcasting, you mean podcast players that happen to be video-based, the way Apple used to have video podcasts separate from audio podcasts. But given that a lot of people are listening to podcasts on YouTube, having a YouTube strategy is smart to expand your audience."

From Angie Hall, Podcaster: "My question is how many years should it take to see substantial growth? I hear 3."

Hernan: "There isn’t a magic number of years. I’ve seen podcasts grow faster than that, or podcasts grow more slowly than that, and I’ve seen podcasts that go along for a period of time, and then something happens, and that resets them to a much higher level. So 3 years is as good a guess as anything, but there’s nothing to say the right amount of cross-promotional effort, you couldn’t grow faster than that."

From Marcia Macomber, Podcast Producer and Host: "For newer podcasts, if you're producing weekly and promoting on social channels, what would be the most important next step to address?"

Hernan: "Promoting on other podcasts. Definitely through guest-swaps or advertising buys. And then making sure you’re on the radar of editor teams at Apple, Spotify and the other platforms."

From Nick Martell, Managing Editor of News & Snacks @ Robinhood: "As a podcast host, I'd love to know whether Hernan thinks podcast platforms will start following the Streaming Wars precedent and push content to align exclusively with Spotify, Apple, or others."

Hernan: "I think that’s happened, to some extent. Spotify is obviously signing up many shows to be Spotify-exclusives, and I think other platforms will respond."

From Kelly Ann Gorman, Podcast host and coach: "I would love to know what publishers and media companies look for when taking on a show. The Happy Workaholic Podcast is almost 3 years old and I have been pitched by many production companies lately and looking for an insider's perspective."

Hernan: "We look at minimal thresholds of listeners per week, or per episode. Right now it’s 50K listeners per episode. And in addition to that, we look to shows that will be great advertising vehicles, and the best tests to predict that are (A) how engaging the hosts are and how interested they are in doing ads, and if they’ve already done ads, how good the quality of their ads are, and (B) the ratings and reviews, because there’s a strong correlation between shows that have 5 star reviews and a lot of engagement from their listeners.

"When you have an engaged listener base, everything else is faster, because your listeners will be your first ambassadors and promoters."

Then we look at the history of the show – how regular it’s been, whether they produce episodes consistently, and then it has to be in a category that we are looking for our advertising portfolio as well."

From Renee Teeley, Speaker and podcast co-host: "What advice do you have for new podcasters that want to make money from their content with a small audience? Typical CPMs are too low to generate meaningful revenue in the beginning. Do you have any examples of integrated sponsorships that pay a lot more than the typical CPM for new podcasts?"

Hernan: "It can be challenging to get good sponsorships, because agencies and advertisers are looking for scale themselves. But definitely grow your audience. I’ve heard from people that you should spend your first year building the audience before you think about ads. With us, we monetize from day one, but the other advice I’d give you is to look at three other avenues of revenue, in particular Patreon donations, because if your listeners are really engaged, and you ask them to support the show, they’ll support you. Give them early access to content or extra content that non-subscribers don’t have."

From Jared McMullin, Business Owner at McMullin Media Group: "Do you think there is still room for new up and coming creators in what seems to be an endless supply of content for viewers?"

Hernan: "Well yes of course!

"We think of ourselves as up and coming creators. We’re only four years old and we were nobody four years ago."

So there’s definitely room for up and coming creators."

From Jessi Hempel, LinkedIn Senior Editor at Large and Podcast host: "Will we sour on true crime?"

Hernan: "I think the answer is no. And here’s why. Our shows are never simply true crime. We have psychological thrillers, we have character dramas, we have enhanced or elevated Shakespearean stories like Over My Dead Body.

"Even when our stories include a crime, there’s always an element that is relatable, that is interesting and personal, that sets them apart from a traditional true crime story."

For the rest of the market, I think people have never tired of true crime stories. But it’s only one part of the podcast listenership. It’s actually not even the number one genre – Edison has it as the number five category in listening! Comedy, news, society and culture, sports, and then true crime is number five. "

From Sarah Ubertaccio, Agency co-owner and Podcast co-host: "I'm curious to learn more about podcast statistics and successful promotion methods. What tools will soon be available for hosts to understand more about their audience and listening behavior? What tools do you expect will be available for promoting podcasts?"

Hernan: "So there’s a lot of research that comes from the platforms themselves, both Apple podcasts and Spotify give us minute-by-minute information. And so that’s extremely granular data that every podcaster should be looking at. What they don’t give us much of is demographic information (well, Apple doesn’t), so try to compliment the information you get from the platforms with your own survey data, which you can get from listeners you ask to go and complete a survey."

From Matthew L: "What's the most satisfying aspect of being a podcaster?"

Hernan: "It’s every time that you are in line to get a coffee or to sign up at a conference or any place where people see your name, and they say “Oh my God, I love your shows!” Doesn’t happen that often, but it’s very satisfying when it happens."

Follow Hernan here on LinkedIn.

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Next week's guest: Diana Williams

I'm incredibly excited to share that our next guest here on You've Got This is Diana Williams, Executive Vice President of Creative at MWM Universe. Her LinkedIn bio reads "I build story worlds across all mediums to reignite the audience experience." But in case you need more mind-expanding detail than that, her day-to-day includes focusing on cross-platform content creation while also acquiring and extending IPs across all media including film, TV, audio, and publishing. Before she joined MWM Universe, Diana was part of a galaxy far, far away as a producer in the Lucasfilm Story Group, an incubator for shared continuity across the Star Wars universe, and as part of the team that launched ILMxLAB. A creator herself, she's also the co-founder and editor of graphic novel The Gatecrashers and began her career as an independent film producer.

With MWM's vast range, here's what I'll be asking Diana:

• Stories are clearly a passion for you. When you're looking at potential properties to work with, which stories grab your attention and why?
• What do you see as the future of fan-driven media?

I invite you to ask your questions for Diana in the comments below, and thanks for reading!